In the knowledge of Saints
Chapter 9
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The Challenge to the churches the year 2015. -------
Now Here’s an up to date Challenge to the churches, which has played itself out, and the outcome is clear to see; the seed has been sown, and the hope for some form of good fruit.
The Challenge---------
This time it takes on a group of churches, and they are some of the everyday churches which we see dotted around, and people have easy access to them.
What I’ll do here is copy and paste the emails I sent them and those replies from the churches.
My first contact with the churches for this challenge -----

Name: Kevin McQuoid
Email: kevin@godswordgiven.co.nz

Subject: Authentic Bible
Your message: Hi, I have received your Booklet in the Mail, and I have a concern about the promotion of the authenticity and general integrity of the books of the New testament as being regarded as Finally established, and I base my concerns on these God given facts:
The founder of mainstream Christianity today is Constantine, who was a murdering Despot, and his character is not Christ like at all. Constantine was not God inspired, but was inspired towards power and fortune to the Roman Empire, but Rome has the blood of Jesus the Christ on their hands, therefore to bring Christian Religion under the power of Rome, he saw the way was to decree that Jesus was of the essence of God, meaning that Jesus had to be God; therefore, it could be argued that no blood was on Rome’s hands, because God, or a god could not be killed, (And here is the confusion setting in, and for the delusions which follow such teachings).When one comes to realise and understand these things, then comes the knowledge that Constantine, who had total control of the Gospel accounts, could, would and did alter them to suit; He couldn't alter the Old Testament, because the Jewish people were guardian over those documents, yet they were not in concern of the Gospels which they refused, and Constantine had clear path to altering the truth as to who Jesus really is; to date the N.T remains altered to allude to Jesus being God or a god, and yes, even the story of the virgin conception and

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Birth of Jesus. How can we be sure? The old testament has the truth, the true story which Constantine and his church would not dare to alter; The church of Constantine is the Roman Catholic church, and even the Reformation did not prevent those who split from her, from being the daughters.
Sorry, your teachings lack knowledge and understanding in this area at least, however, if you have a mind to accept correction from one who is God inspired, I am pleased to be here for you.
Yours Sincerely
Kevin McQuoid
www.godswordgiven.co.nz

The churches reply ------

Hi Kevin
Thanks for your feedback.
As far as I am aware, there are original copies of all the New Testament documents that pre-date Constantine, so the claims that they have been tampered with do not stand.- Though I am sure that others of the things you say about Constantine and his affect upon the Church are likely to be true.
Noting that you seem to have specific and strong views on this, I do not know how beneficial further conversation would be. If you did have a specific question, I’d be happy to forward this to someone who could provide a fair and informed response. However, as this could become an ‘inside debate’ between Christians of differing views, it’s a little outside of our objectives; it’s not a debate I can personally give time to. Our understanding is that what has been summarised in these booklets is a fair perspective, agreed upon by the partnering churches that support this. We do not feel uncertain about the scholarship that lies behind what was summarised in the booklet.
I will leave it up you as to whether a further conversation is beneficial.
Sincerely
Dave
Hope Project team.

My comment for this book--------

Now I’m not going to comment on every notable thing, and will leave it up to those who really care about what the churches are based on, to come to their own conclusions on the matter.
Here’s a group of everyday Mainstream churches with the claim that they have the original Gospels, well at least this man thinks so, however he feels that the ones they work on haven’t been in Constantine’s hands; this sounds good, but thinking on these churches Apostate state, leads to considerable doubt; I want to see these original manuscripts, therefore pursue that line of challenge at this stage.

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It looks as though this man is aware of the problems of Constantine’s making; this interests me also, and I note that he would rather not be involved in this challenge, siting the usual church excuses like it’s only a matter of differing opinions, and I haven’t time for this, also, We who believe these things all agree.
The statement: - “Our understanding is that what has been summarised in these booklets is a fair perspective, agreed upon by the partnering churches that support this”,-- is no comfort, coming from them. However I replied.

My reply--------

Name: Kevin McQuoid
Email: kevin@godswordgiven.co.nz
Subject: authentic Gospels
Your message: Hi Dave,
Thanks for your quick reply to my message.
I am genuinely interested in hearing from you, re- the Authentic Documents predating Constantine, as I to realise that there must have at some stage been some accurate account, it is also recorded in history that Constantine had no idea of what was authentic and what was a bias copy, not that it would have mattered to him and his regime.
What I need to know is: who has the authentic copies, and what leads them to believe that they are authentic, given that it is the Old Testament which decides the Authenticity of the available copies of the Gospels, and in matters of Jesus the Christ, and that is according to Jesus, then this can be easily verified by Moses, the Prophets and Psalms.
Dave, True Christianity totally depends on worshipping God in spirit and truth, this is what God requires of his chosen; therefore all Christians are suppose to give the time to attend to matters of God no matter what.
I look forward to your organisations correspondence on this matter, and whatever tangible evidence you can provide, this would be appreciated.
Yours Sincerely
Kevin McQuoid.


My comment for this book ---

The above email makes the clear statement that it is the Old Testament which decides the authenticity of the Gospels, that is in the matter of Jesus the Christ, and it is clear that Jesus is concerned that his people know that.

 

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The churches reply--------

Hi Kevin
Great stuff.
I will forward your email to Glenn. He has helped us with a couple of videos…, and will know more about these things.
He will reply you (or I’ll be in touch again if he can’t).
He works office hours, so may take a couple of days to reply.
All the best!
Dave
Hope Project team

My comment for this book ------
Dave replies that which I have emailed is “Great stuff”, so that’s encouragement.
Then several weeks later I messaged them through their website, because of the lack of further correspondence from them, resulting in the email below.
 

My Email to the churches--------

New Testament authenticity
Hello Dave or Glenn.
Recently I Emailed you on a matter of great importance in matters of God, and in response to your Hope Project Booklet, and during those emails made contact with Dave, who in turn, wrote me that he would forward my Emails to Glenn.
To date I have not received a correspondence from Glenn.

I serve to remind you, that the subject of the Authenticity of parts of the New Testament is of paramount importance, firstly to those who are being taught, and also to those who are teaching from it.
Of course, and as usual, most churches have in the past and will in the future, duck for cover when contested about what they teach; it is of utmost importance to address these matters which need correction; God, through the Lord Jesus the Christ, is very much concerned at what the churches are doing, it is also written, and to try and ignore God's correction will do nothing other than to ensure God's anger.
I have offered you my help, and yes, it is your choice, receive or reject, but give your congregation, and yourselves the chance of an informed choice, and at least listen to what I share with you of that which God has given me.

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Perhaps you might read my book "In the knowledge of Saints", it is free, no charge, as is God's word, and you can find it on my website www.godswordgiven.co.nz But bear in mind that it's not finished, and dealing with the subject of individual churches is in Chapter 7, which is next to be published.
I ask you to correspond with me by return, and let me know your intentions, one way or the other, and if I haven't heard from you by Monday 8th June, I will assume your position in this matter to be unresponsive
I look forward to the possibility of working with, and helping you in the future.
Yours Sincerely
Kevin McQuoid.

My comments to the email to the churches ---

Among other things, I have let them know that they are part of my ongoing work with the churches on this matter.

The churches reply -------

Hi Kevin
Thank you for following up. I thought you had been replied. Clearly this isn’t the case. I will follow up. If Glenn cannot I’ll look into finding some info for you related to the topics you raised initially. My own schedule is very full - meaning I have multiple things demanding attention, and no way of achieving this in any given week for about a month from here. Hopefully Glenn is able.

I’ll make a note this time to check you have been responded to.

Thanks for your patience. Sorry for our no-reply

:-)
Dave
Hope Project team


Hi Kevin
Below is a reply from Glenn related to the questions?
My sincere apologies for the delay. Glenn replied me about 2 weeks ago while i was travelling. I couldn’t find the email early this week - so had to contact him to send it again. My fault.

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He gives some direction for further investigation also, which may be useful.
I hope this helps:-)
Dave
Hope Project team
Continued below is the reply from Glenn ---
The question of how we can have confidence that the books of the New Testament represent the most accurate expression of first century Christianity – the movement of the earliest followers of Jesus, is a good one. It’s especially good in light of some of the conspiracy theories you hear now – that the church suppressed the most reliable Gospels and just imposed its own view of orthodoxy over and against the so-called heretics. There’s a familiar myth, taking various forms, that somehow Emperor Constantine had authority over what ended up in the Bible. No doubt Dan Brown’s book “The Da Vinci Code” is responsible for how widespread this view has become. But it’s just not true.

Constantine the Great was Emperor from 306 to 337. The earliest written canon of the New Testament that we know of was by Marcion the heretic in around AD 140. But he was quite intentionally departing from the view of the wider church in excluding material that he considered too Jewish. The second earliest was the “Muratorian Fragment,” which dates from the late second century. F. F. Bruce describes it:

It is unfortunately mutilated at the beginning, but it evidently
mentioned Matthew and Mark, because it refers to Luke as
The third Gospel; then it mentions John, Acts, 'Paul's nine
Letters to churches and four to individuals (Philemon,
Titus, 1 and 2 Timothy), Jude, two Epistles of John, and
The Apocalypse of John and that of Peter.' The Shepherd of
Hermas is mentioned as worthy to be read (i.e. in church) but
Not to be included in the number of prophetic or apostolic writings.
(See more: http://www.bible-researcher.com/bruce1.html)

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When Tatian composed his harmony of the Gospels in around AD 170, the only Gospels used were Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Those were known by the church as the Gospels, and theories that perhaps other Gospels have equal claim to legitimacy simply lack good evidence. Constantine had no interesting part in the formation of biblical canon, and the sooner that modern myth vanishes from sceptical websites the better.

Of course, nobody thinks that the four Gospels feel from heaven. The relevant questions are just whether or not we can know with confidence what they said, and whether or not they faithfully convey to us the person and work of Jesus.

As for the question of “who has the authentic copies,” the answer is: Nobody has the originals (i.e. the “autographs”). They simply couldn’t exist after all this time. Fortunately, the science of textual criticism and the very large wealth of manuscripts that we do have allows us to have very high confidence of what the autographs contained. We have more copies of New Testament manuscripts than we do of any other ancient Greek work. Every now and then there is an exciting discovery about a fragment earlier than any other – such as the one that is currently being discussed (but is still under scrutiny and needs to be verified) that may turn out to be a first-century fragment from Mark’s Gospel (see http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2015/01/20/how-should-we-respond-to-reports-that-a-fragment-of-mark-dates-to-the-first-century/). But any complete manuscript we have is a copy of a copy. And we have a lot of them. There are also extensive quotations from the New Testament that appear in the Church Fathers from the second century onwards.
So when it comes to knowing that the list of books in our New Testament (especially the list of contents) is the one that was used from earliest times and knowing the content of those books with confidence, the evidence is very good.
Obviously the subject is a very large one and there’s a huge amount of material out there to read for those who are interested, both on the content of the New Testament and its reliability. For more detailed (but still brief!) thoughts on the latter, I would recommend a short piece by New Testament scholar Craig Blomberg, “Is the New Testament Historically Reliable?”
http://www.free-online.org/free-thinking/lifes-big-questions/bible/is-the-new-testament-historically-reliable.htm
For a very short but helpful overview of the nature of textual criticism in New Testament studies, here’s an interview with New Testament scholar Dan Wallace:http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2012/03/21/an-interview-with-daniel-b-wallace-on-the-new-testament-manuscripts/ In it, Wallace makes some recommendations for books for those who want to go deep into the subject. I would especially recommend the book “Reinventing Jesus” (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/082542982X/thegospcoal-20), which deals with contemporary attempts to undermine the historic Christian view of Jesus of Nazareth.

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There is also a very enlightening talk by Tim McGrew on the internal evidence for the reliability of the Gospels (i.e. the truth of what they convey in terms of historical events) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wUcrwYocgM

I hope some of this is useful. The reality is that I could only ever hope to scratch the surface in an email, and there’s already a very large literature on the subject to explore.

All the best,
Glenn

My Comments for this book-------

No matter what anyone may present as the foundation for their belief in this matter, the one thing that sweeps it all  aside to be of no significance, or relevance, is the word of God, and without entering into long tedious monolog, the scriptures which are unadulterated serve very well the purpose in this case. Quite frankly, we need look no further than the Old Testament, which Jesus drew our attention to! One of the most outstanding problems many have in coming to their beliefs, is that they rely on the intelligence of other men, who decide by their own intellect what the word of God means, and without seeking God. God said that he will not give the understanding to those ones, and that he will give it to those who are humble to him and receive with great thanks that which God gives them as Accurate knowledge, and the understanding of it. (Read around in the scriptures, it’s there for all to read).
Basically the whole problem for the churches concerned, of not accepting the corrections, is in how they have chosen to change or deny historical events, protecting Constantine, which protects his/ their Doctrine.
“Constantine the Great” is how the Trinitarian churches uphold Constantine, what great reverence they hold him in; now let’s see what Jesus the Christ has taught us about the character of such a man: - Should we start a following of disciples of Jesus the Christ by, Changing God’s times and Laws? By changing the written word of God, passed on through Jesus? By denying the Testimony of God and Jesus as to who Jesus is? By bloodshed, torture, and brutal murder? By lying, and cheating? By lust of power and money? It just goes on and on. Is this how Jesus the Christ taught anyone how to bring people into the New Covenant with God? Come now and reason with this, is this Christ like? The very existence of Jesus, and the meaning of the Christ, is to stop all those very things that Mainstream churches are guilty of! The Roman Catholic church which is the church of Constantine is the Mother, and the other Trinitarian churches are her Daughters, they are all guilty of all those things and more mentioned above! And in the least cases are Apostate, which means they are sinners! Take for instance the recent Irish wars between the Roman Catholic churches and the Protestant churches which are all called mainstream, the lot were bloody murderers, cowardly murder was carried out before our very eyes, and by all the churches concerned.

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History records what the churches wish would just disappear, through cracks they hope might open up out of nowhere, and that is the roll many of them were involved in during the Second World War, that is against the Jewish people, yes the Mother of Trinitarians were involved in encouragement to destroy the Jews! Open your eyes to Scripture which is of God! Know that God will demand it of those who strike out against the Jewish Nations/People. And know that demand it of means God will bring the punishment on them; these are the traits of Constantine his legacy for all Christianity!
The above email from Glenn and Dave who you will see as we read on, claim to represent the whole of Mainstream Trinitarian Christianity, has relied heavily on quotes, and bias opinions of man, and not of corrected Knowledge and understandings from God, and so are dismissible.
I personally have not read Dan Browns book, so can’t comment, and also doesn’t influence me.
They have not the authority of the original copies of the Gospel ----
Now comes the admission: - there is no Authentic Copies of the Gospels! They can’t hide the fact, and by their own admission that any complete manuscript they have is only a copy of a copy! Complete manuscripts are few and far between, but when the truth is known there are /were multiples of the same Gospels to choose from.
I have uncovered what the churches have tried to cover up since Constantine at least, that they have not the authority of authentic Manuscripts at all! And they show no Holy Spirit inspiration from God; they are truly Constantine’s church, even though they have splintered off.
Now I have been lead to the question which begs acknowledgement and an answer, the Trinity, therefore: -

My reply to the churches -------


Name: Kevin McQuoid
Email: kevin@godswordgiven.co.nz

Subject: The essence of God
Your message: Hi Glenn,
I'm in receipt of your email, thanks for that.
I wish to get further into the subject, not that of the history of events concerning the New Testament, because that is not in question here, but what I know needs addressing is, the status in which the lord Jesus the Christ was, in his first walking upon this Earth, that is, the teaching by some, that he was/is of the essence of God, essence meaning of the same substance.
The History of Constantine and his regime has allowed for Doctrine change, the history is

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Clearly written on this, no doubts at all, and the Old Testament proves that Jesus himself was not of the essence of God, and that also is perfectly clear. The changes in this doctrine came with the New Testament, which are contradictory in this matter, also clearly seen. Many people see these contradictions, and rebuke the churches which teach them, (known or not to the churches).
It is that knowledge and understanding of it, which is vital to all who hold themselves as Christian.
Glenn, it is my job to bring these things out, and I would like to work with all those who are a part of the Hope Project, I will give my time, and through you I would like to become known to your affiliated church leaders.
The question is: - Are you prepared to take this on? Or any churches?
I look forward to your response on this matter, but it would be easier if you provided a more direct Email contact address.
Yours Sincerely
Kevin McQuoid.

My comment for this book ----

I have shown a complete disregard to the churches explanation of their teachings, and shown how simple it is to disprove their doctrine foundation, by simply pointing out that I use the strength of God’s arm, that is God’s word of the Old Testament, and the churches in the main rely heavily on the strength of mans arm, and from mans own intellect.
I have shown the churches that I do care for them, and fear for them also.


The churches reply -------

Hi Kevin
Glenn has had a quick read at work and replied to suggest that there may be limited point in pursuing this conversation.

The Hope Project isn't looking for partners, and especially not to raise theological issues.

In terms of the issues themselves, it seems that you question the trinity. There is a wealth of material online about this topic. My guess is that you would know this already, and would have read an amount - in which case you are set in a particular theological position also, so a conversation isn’t going to go very far, is it?

 

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We believe Jesus was Divine, and that his claim is clear
- E.g. at https://10daychallenge.co.nz/faithqa/ you will see the question ‘Did Jesus claim to be Divine?’ in the right hand column.
This is the position that our partnering churches would agree with.


Might this be a polite place for us to agree to disagree?

Freely let me know your thoughts :-)
Dave
Hope Project team

My comment for this book -----

O.K. It’s all falling apart.
The churches are not looking for any Partners, and neither am I looking to become partners with Apostasy, I would if the Apostasy could be corrected, that would be marvellous.
I don’t question the Trinity, but give correction to the error of it.
Words which say we don’t want to hear you, because you question the Trinity, are in there.
I know that you make your stance on the Trinity clear, but the fact is, God and Jesus don’t.
To be polite, I did check out your “Did Jesus claim to be Divine” on your website, and once again there is nothing given in it which is of Understood scripture, rather an attempt to back Constantine’s regime up, and therefore that of the doctrine of your Forefathers, and I realise that all the partnering churches naturally will agree with you, given that they also are of the Trinity doctrine. But I will tell you this: - Not all who frequent your churches agree with the Trinity!
O.K. so you want out of these communications with the word of God? then I will bring it to an end, and with well formed understandings of the Trinitarian churches, which incidentally, I already had before hand, with the difference that now I have something on paper.
I was going to leave things at this point in communications with you, but you have invited me to “Freely let me know your thoughts” (You don’t want to hear me, but you want more?) So I replied with: -

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My reply accordingly to the churches -----

Name: Kevin McQuoid
Email: kevin@godswordgiven.co.nz

Subject: corrections
Your message: Hi Dave and Glenn,
I have viewed the "Is Jesus Devine" video on your website, and have known previously how you arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity.
The point is this: - The Old Testament proves that theory wrong, the proof that Jesus himself is not of the essence of God, is clearly in the Old Testament.
A Key to knowing Jesus, was given by him, when he told us that we should believe all those things written about him, in the Old scriptures, and starting from Moses, and then the Prophets, and also the Psalms. Once read and compared to the New Testament we have today, then clearly there is much contradiction of the Old Testament, bought on by the New. This also contradicts God's testimony of who Jesus is.
I am debating the matter with you and those churches which uphold the Trinity doctrine, through you, but I have in doing so, told you that the Trinity doctrine is in error; It's not a wise move to become angry about this matter, because wisdom would know the error, but dismissing it would show a position which is not wise.
Just very briefly, an account of my qualifications in these matters: - I am taught by God, not man, I have also been instructed in corrections in matters of God, and in particular those things which are important, to our Eternal Profit, therefore, my Ministry is of Corrections. My website www.godswordgiven.co.nz gives the details. I encourage all churches to read it.
I'm not looking for any argument, what I challenge the churches, is my God Given Job.
Yes, I can and do openly claim that I am God inspired; those who are not, cannot examine me, yet I can discern those who are.
The doctrine I hear from you falls short of the mark, so therefore reason with this:-

Where are the churches today?
Do they keep the Sabbath on the seventh day?
Do they call the Passover Crucifixion, Easter, which is the Idol Oestra?
Are the churches in their Apostasy, as per the Prophecies of God?
Is proof of Apostasy shown in the blatant disobedience to God in churches supporting Homosexuals, when God says they shall die the death?
The question is this: - If the church is in error in these matters, then wouldn't the truth be that they are disobedient to God?
And if to teach that Jesus the Christ is God, and during the return of Jesus, this doctrine was to cause many to follow the Beast, and his False Prophet, and therefore lose life Eternal with God, would there be a place for those who teach such doctrine in God's Kingdom? Would there be a place for that church?

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These are just some things of concern, yet they prove my point, here is the proof, there's no God inspiration in the founders of these churches, proof? They forced power by blood, Murder and many other methods which are not of Christ; where ever did Jesus tell anyone to start a church the way they have been started?
It's about choices; some spend their time in Party spirit, and in error because of that.
Some God calls out of the churches, "Come out of her, my people, least ye fellowship with her sins, and therefore partake of her Plagues".
I know your position, the choice is yours, I have done my job, but remember this, and Jesus said there are Christians of authority, expecting to enter in, who will be rejected.
I am Here for those who will accept Correction of God, I collect no Tithe, nor Donations, and God’s word is Free to all. ---- The wise would read it----take your time, Brother?
Perhaps this could be called my hope project also.
Regards
Kevin McQuoid.

The churches reply ----

Hi Kevin
Thanks for your email.

Having read it, I see no profit in a continued conversation. There are solid reason why mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity. We do not wish to be a vehicle for any individuals view or position. We represent mainline Christian churches and hold to their same beliefs. We seek to know and understand God and His Word with integrity - and it seems clear that we have come to different conclusions. You also seem to be appointing yourself as a prophet (believing God has appointed you). This is concerning (though there may be a group you are affiliated to that you have not mentioned).

Thank you for your enquiry.

Kind regards
Dave
Hope Project team

My comments are in Chapter 10. Please click here